The Dangerous Prayer That Changes Everything | Austin Gardner & Steve McVey

What happens when you’ve known someone longer than your own wife? You get the kind of raw, honest conversation that only 54 years of friendship can produce.

In this episode of Followed by Mercy, Austin Gardner sits down with his lifelong friend and mentor, Steve McVey—the best-selling author of Grace Walk. They take us back to the beginning in 1972, sharing hilarious stories of street preaching and "witnessing" in bars, before diving into a profound truth: the danger of asking God to know Him more deeply.

Inside the Episode:

• The Bumblebee Bar Story: Why Betty (Austin’s wife) caught him coming out of a bar at a Baptist college.
• The Performance Trap: How Steve went from a "successful" pastor at 19 to finding true intimacy with Christ.
• Defining Brokenness: Why Steve defines brokenness as "giving up confidence in our own ability to manage life."
• The "Dangerous Prayer": Why praying to know God more deeply often leads to chaos, but always leads to grace.

Whether you are struggling with the pressure to perform or navigating your own season of "chaos," this conversation is a roadmap to finding rest in the finished work of Jesus.

Connect with Austin Gardner:
🌐 Website: https://waustingardner.com
📩 Substack: https://waustingardner.substack.com
📘 Alignment Ministries: https://alignmentministries.com

About Steve McVey:
Steve is the author of Grace Walk and has spent decades helping people move from performance-based religion to the freedom of a relationship with Christ.

SEO & Ranking Keywords

• Primary Keyphrase: Grace vs Performance
• Secondary Keywords: Steve McVey Grace Walk, Austin Gardner Podcast, Christian Brokenness, Spiritual Growth through Chaos, Finding Peace in Christ, Grace-filled Leadership, Overcoming the Performance Trap.

Thanks for listening. Find us on YouTube, Substack, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.

Transcript

Welcome And A Lifelong Friendship

Austin Gardner 0:01

Well, I want to welcome you back to Followed by Mercy. I am so excited today to have with me a friend that has been a friend to me. Are you ready for this? Longer than I've known Betty. I met him on the very first day of college. Back in, I know you're not going to believe this, 1972. And I really believe that my friend has been one of those mercies that God put in my life. That has He has had following me. And so I can't wait to just chew the fat, talk over old times, and talk about how God has taught us about Him. Because I think I know I have grown so much. And what's hard for me, Steve, to admit is good night. It took me 48 years, I think. I was on the road, but I've been real slow at getting there. So why don't you say just a tad of things about yourself and and we'll go from there?

Steve McVey 1:06

Well, first of all, I I'm honored that you would have me on this uh podcast with you. And as you said to the audience, man, I I don't have I don't have I'm trying to think. I make sure I don't over exaggerate this or over speak it. I don't think I have a friend that I have kept contact with uh like I have you that I have known as long as you and I have known each other. I turned 18 years old in July, and then I went to school there, and and you and I met each other in August. We were both singles, obviously we were kids, and uh we I have I have told stories of things you and I have done together, both great things and crazy things, all these decades. And uh Austin, you've been a real gift in my life, as you had to so many people that are watching. But you and Betty, your friendship has meant more to me than uh than I could express with words. And I'm excited to see what the Lord's doing in your life these days.

Austin Gardner 2:13

Well, you know what was really funny when we were kids. I got to college and I'd been made fun of for being a Jesus freak in high school. And that was back in the days of the Jesus people and all that stuff that these young people don't know about today. And I begged God to give me one friend that was a man that would stand for Jesus and and honor Jesus, and I met you that very first day, and so I do genuinely believe that God answered my prayer, and I am so grateful. And uh for all of you listening, Steve has been a friend, but he's been a lot of a mentor to me. Uh I actually worked as his assistant pastor, and uh, I mean, we started out very, very young, and so uh we've been we've done a lot of life together.

College Faith And Bold Street Stories

Austin Gardner 3:05

Our children, we were there for the birth of our children, each other's children, and it's just been a wild and crazy ride. Now, if you may not know, Steve is the author of a book called Grace Walk. And uh that book has been greatly used of God all over the world. Uh it's it is his uh, maybe I don't know what you'll say about it, Steve, but like your opus, it's your it's the work that really God used to get things rolling. And uh it talks about how he has learned to walk in grace, and that's a massive thought that we would learn to walk in grace. So, Steve, you want to kind of summarize uh a little bit of what goes on in the book?

Steve McVey 3:53

Yeah, that that that that I wrote that book. Well, let me just give a let me give a short testimony. I'll do it that way. Sir, yeah. You and I both you know me well enough that there's little I'll say that you haven't heard or that you didn't witness firsthand. But you and I were very, very um passionate. I've always had a heart for the Lord, as you have. For goodness sake, you and I preached on street corners together. We stay in, we've stormed. You remember that time we went to the Bumblebee bar and laid our Bible on the bar and tried to win, you know, tried to win this to that guy.

Austin Gardner 4:32

Wait a minute. We walk in this bar and I'm scared to death. But Steve is bold as a lion, he always has been. And so we were we were walking up to this Bumblebee cafe, and I look, I said, That's a bar, I can't go in there. And Steve said, Oh, shut up and follow me. And so we walked in, and uh, I said, But uh, I'm shaking just about. We're like 18 years old, and uh so Steve says, Give out the gospel tracks before they throw us out of here. And he walks over to the bar and starts preaching. And uh then we walk out the door, and Betty, who's going to be my wife, sees me coming out of the bar at the Baptist College.

Steve McVey 5:14

I'm I'm we've started I I started to say I've got you in trouble probably more than once, but hey, brother, that runs both directions. We've got each other in trouble a lot of times with our shenanigans. But as I was saying, we've always been zealous. I I've always been on fire. I I preached my first sermon when I was a 16-year-old boy. I knew that I wanted to preach. I I remember when I was 10, sitting in church listening to my pastor. His name was T. L. Moody, not DL, but T. L Moody. And uh I heard him preaching and I thought, I thought that's this is what the Lord wants me to do. So I went to my pastor and told him that he was such a nice guy. I'm so glad he didn't turn away a young boy like I didn't know what I was talking about. He said, Steve, he said, if that's God putting that in your heart, the desire will grow. If not, it'll go away. And it did grow. And I became a senior pastor at 19 years old, and um, and uh I was very sincere and and and uh you and I preached in each other's churches over the years in those early days, especially. And my goal was to evangelize the world, to to make my mark for God, so to speak. And let me fast forward to uh the late 1980s. I was in a church in Alabama that was doing just so well to this day. I have such wonderful memories of those folks. They loved me and I loved them. And uh the church was very successful using the metrics that I used back then. And, you know, the metrics that I used for success in a church was how many people were getting saved, how what was your Sunday school attendance, you know, that that kind of thing. Not and not to suggest that those things don't have value, but I've come to realize that just because the the cult groups are growing very fast in the world today, that doesn't mean that they're right about some things. So anyway, the but the church had done very well, and I'd had other people from outside that church contact me and ask me if I'd consider leaving and going somewhere, but somewhere else, because they wanted a pastor who was, you know, pastoring serving in a successful congregation. And I'd always said no, but I began to pray in the in in in in the at church, and I said, Lord, I want to know you more deeply than I've ever known you. That's a dangerous, that's a dangerous prayer. I know it, it is. I said, I want to know you more deeply than I've ever known

When Ministry Success Becomes A Trap

Steve McVey 7:55

you. And I said, I want you to reveal yourself to me and and take me as far into you, my relationship to you as I can go. And I said, do whatever it takes to make that happen. Ding ding ding. There was the prayer. I didn't know what I was saying.

Austin Gardner 8:15

You know, yeah. Let me let me say this because where you I know where you're going, but for some of you listen, I prayed that prayer just like Steve. But fear of man and worry about what people might think about me hindered me from allowing God to do in me what he's gonna do in Steve's life. And it had I have to wait until utter chaos takes place in my life. Cancer, COVID, chaos, for I will let God do what God did in Steve's life right then. Go ahead, Steve. I just think I think that you were willing, and I was, you were looking at God, and I was still of a quarter of my at least looking at man.

Steve McVey 9:04

Well, I'll say this don't give me more credit than it's deserved there, because ten years earlier, you remember when I was I started to say the name of the church, I'll say it. It's gonna have a you remember when I was at Kathleen, that church shut their doors after I left there years later. But I call that the church from hell. I mean, that's the church for you the the the people that are watching it to show you what I mean. They had a they had a a called meeting of the deacons one week, and I was called into that meeting, and one of the deacons on behalf of the rest said to me, Do you not understand how much it costs to heat that baptismal pool waters as often as you're heating it? I mean, really, it was that kind of place. Now, let me say, I actually had suicidal thoughts in that church. I did you know that, Austin? Had you had we had you and I Yeah, I had suicidal thoughts in that church because I thought, Lord, you got me in this bottomless pit. You're not gonna get me out. I got four little babies that have to eat. I'm eking out an existence in this place. And I believe that God was working in my life then to bring me to a place that I call brokenness, and I'll define that. But my stubbornness, just what you were saying, my own stubbornness, just made me clench my fist and hang on and endure. I think you said it for you, it was uh it was cancer and COVID, and you use the word chaos, and I but I think that's the template that God uses in the life of anybody that he intends to work through and to really make an impact in lives. You know, Watchman Knee wrote that book, uh, The Normal Christian Life, and he wrote about this process. I define brokenness as the condition that exists when we have given up all confidence in our own ability to manage life. And we all have to come there because unless the grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it abides along. But if it dies, it'll bring forth much fruit. So back then, when I was in my late 20s, God was trying to do that, but I was too stubborn. So I just endured until the time passed and I went on. But now I'm at that church in Talladeg, Alabama, and I began praying that prayer, and God heard me. He always hears our prayers. But that's right, he always does. But he took that real seriously more than I did. And so I had this person call me from a church in Atlanta, and they wanted to talk to me about the possibility of becoming their pastor, and I'd said no to that kind of phone call other times from other people, but something in me sensed I ought to let him let them come. So they did. He and I think four others came and heard me preach one Sunday. You all know how it works. And then I talked to him, and I sensed that God was leading me to go there. And I got up in the pulpit, told my church I was leaving, I cried, they cried. I mean, when I got ready to leave town, they even put a banner over the street downtown that said, Brother Steve, turn back. I mean, it those those folks love me. It was great. But I thought, well, God could only be leading me out of this place to Atlanta because he's got big plans. And in my mind, I thought, look out, Charles Stanley, here I come to Atlanta. And so I moved into big plans. I moved into a church that had been declining for five years, but everywhere I'd ever been, the church would turn around and grow. So I got there, and to my absolute shock, not only did the church not grow, but it kept dying numerically. Now remember that was how I got my sense of value back then, growing the church growing in numbers. But it kept dying. And so over that first year as their pastor, I, you know, I pulled out all the stops. I had all the famous preachers and singers come in, and I did everything I knew to do. But I began to get frustrated and I began to get disappointed that it wasn't

The Prayer That Triggered Brokenness

Steve McVey 13:05

working like I thought it would should. And then I began to feel depressed. And in my book, Gracewalk, my first book, I wrote about it, chapter one, October 6, 1990. I'll never forget it. Two in the morning, I was lying on my face in the middle of the night crying. 2 a.m. It was a Sunday morning, Saturday night, 2 a.m. And I was absolutely a point of despair. And I was saying, God, if if this is ministry, I want out. And I said, in fact, if this is the Christian life, it's overrated. If my experience is what Christianity is, it's overrated. It might be good for getting me into heaven, but in the meantime, I ain't I don't get it. It's not, I just don't get it. And then I'll never forget this. It was a defining moment in my life. I was lying on my face and I pushed myself up and I looked up in God, looked up toward the ceiling, and I screamed at God, and I said, I have given my whole life to serve you. And I was mad. I said, What do you want from me? And I've never been, you know, a quote, charismatic Christian, but I did have an experience that I know was God because when I shouted, What do you want from me? In my mind as clear as a bell, it wasn't audible. It was, I'm gonna say it was louder than that. It was in my mind. I heard God say, Steve, I just want you. And when God speaks, you know, you know exactly what he means by what he says. And for the first time, I understood he didn't want me because he needed me to win souls. He didn't want me because he needed me to pastor church or counsel people or visit hospitals or preach sermons or any of that. He just wanted me because he loved me. And I've often said I came to realize God wasn't God's not looking for a maid, he's looking for a bride. And I began to pray, and I just emptied myself through that prayer of everything I had depended on that I thought had given me success. You know, my preaching abilities, my church growth programs, my everything that had worked in the past that wasn't working here in that church, I emptied myself and I said, God, I do quit ministry. It's your ministry from now on. If it's, and if it succeeds, I'll give you all the praise. And listen to this. I said, if it fails, I'll give you all the blame. Hey, it's not mine, it's his. If you're gonna get the credit, you're gonna get the blame. And I said, and I'm not trying to live the Christ Christian life anymore. I'm not doing it. Either you live it through me, or it's just gonna be what it is. And I got up the next morning, it was the anniversary date of my first year as the pastor, and I told the church, I said, guys, here's what happened with me last night. And I shared with them, we're just gonna pray, and I'm canceling all the plans that we had to try to bring in famous preachers and singers and all that. We're just gonna see what God does. And it I just begin to pray, and it was about two weeks later I got a letter from, you know, a mass mail out thing, but it was a letter inviting me to a conference about what Hudson Taylor, the missionary, called the exchanged life. And it was at downtown Atlanta, and I went to that conference, and for the first time in my life, I heard truths that sharply contradicted what I had always believed and taught, but I could not deny they were biblical. Didn't buy in right out the gate, but I did buy a bunch of books off their book table. And I read people like Watchman Knee, The Normal Christian Life. I read a lot of the old early Hannah Whittall-Smith, and a lot of these people that wrote about the what they called the deeper life. And finally, Watchman Knee, I like his name for it, the normal Christian life. Duh. But finally, I'd read a lot of books and prayed, and I was reading a book by a man who later would become a a dear friend and mentor to me. His name was Bill Gillam. Bill wrote a book called Lifetime Guarantee. And I I'll never forget, I was sitting in my office reading, and it wasn't just Bill's book or Bill, because I'd read a lot of stuff and a lot of wrestled with a lot of scripture, a lot of yeah, but what about questions. And when I was reading that book, it was all of a sudden like the scales just fell off my eyes. And for the first time, I saw that God didn't love me because of what I could do. I saw that God didn't doesn't even need me. I used to preach, we are his hands, we are his feet, we are his mouth. But brother, if you look at some of the churches I served, you would have might have concluded God's a paracolegian based on what you could see. But I real but I realized, and and Paul said it in Acts 17 on Mars Hill, neither is he served by human hands as if he needed anything. God doesn't need me. He was doing pretty fine before I showed up in 1954, and he'll be doing fine when I leave. But more than that, he wants me. And I remember thinking early on, but at that conference,

“I Just Want You” At 2 A.M.

Steve McVey 18:40

but if this is true, how will it affect the way I live? Because if I'm not under the law and my life is not to be built around Christian rules, but in Christ, and if if my if I'm not, if it's not like I I have to serve the Lord, I ought to, I might just get lazy and do nothing. But I like what Paul the apostle said when he says the grace of God has appeared to all men, teaching us to deny ungodliness and how to live soberly and righteously and just in this present age. And what I didn't know back then, Austin, was grace teaches me. I serve now not because I ought to, I serve because I want to. I used to be driven by the rules of the Christian life. Now it's the relationship. Uh I and forgive me if I'm going on and on, interrupt me anytime. But it's like when I travel, I've been married, you and I, you know this, Austin and I, our paths in life have paralleled so amazingly. We were we trusted Christ weeks apart. We got married a short time. I think you admit it got married in August. We got married in July. I've told him, I've told you, you know, many times that if I die, you better get right with God, because I'm usually two steps in front of you. But anyway.

Austin Gardner 20:05

I am already right with God nowadays. Okay, exactly. Exactly. So anyway, I uh I used to I used to I would have been afraid of that statement before.

Steve McVey 20:17

But I I tell I've said to people at times, I've said, you know what? I've traveled for years. I'm I'm not doing it now, but for years I traveled. And I used to say in conferences, I said, you know, I'm out of town, I'm a long way from home. If I wanted to cheat on my wife, I could. I could if I wanted to. And I said, she might never know. She probably would never know. I'm a long way from home. Well, why don't I cheat on my wife? Is it because the Bible says thou shalt not commit adultery? No, of course not. I don't cheat on my wife because I love my wife. And then sometime I'd say, now when I go home, I've been gone all these days. When I go home, do I have to kiss my wife? And somebody might say, Well, you've been married a long time, but you still ought to kiss her. I said, okay, can it be a peck on the cheek or does it need to be on the lips? Well, this is your wife. You probably ought to kiss her on the lips. Well, can it just be a just a peck, or do I need to give her one of those movie, you know, romantic kisses? I said, you would look at me and say, Steve, what's wrong with your marriage? And the point is, it's not the rules that govern my relationship to Melanie. It's the love. And that's what I missed back then. I was scared that if I didn't do what I ought to do, I might not do what at the time I thought must be done. But what I've learned is grace changes our wants. It moves it from the ought to column into the want-to column. And so sitting there in my office, the scales fell away. And I have not, let me say it this way I have not learned to walk in grace. I'm still learning to walk in grace. And I think we'll learn it through all eternity. But little by little, though I was a Sincere pastor, and you know that about me just like I know it about you. Little by little, somehow over time, from that time I went to Cedar Creek as a 19-year-old senior pastor, somehow over time my focus shifted more onto the performance of ministry than the person who had called me to that ministry. And that's where I got in trouble. And that's the change now. It's my focus is back on Jesus. And I don't mean I have perfect execution. I blow it left and right still, but thank God I'm not who I used to be. And you know that about.

Austin Gardner 22:38

You know, I think uh for those of you listening, uh Steve mentioned a minute ago. And it's really all it's all he's been saying the whole time. You remember he said it's the difference between a maid and a wife. And living in Peru, we had a maid. And she loves our family, without a doubt. She I mean, she's been with our family. She served after what after we left, she worked with Chris. After Chris left, she worked with David. She continues working there. But there's a complete and total difference between maid and wife. I mean, she we we give her a hard time for showing up late because bless God, she's supposed to be on time to work. And uh, you know, I think it's the Martha Mary thing. And so what Steve is telling all of us is I have known all my life that God loves me up here. I've never known it down here. I've known up here that he loved me even though I was a sinner, but down here I was like, I but I better measure up. And Steve, I know you've dealt with hundreds of people, thousands of people with that problem. But for the person listening right now, how do I how do I move from knowing it academically to believing it and trusting it in my heart?

Steve McVey 23:59

Well, first of all, it's the recognition that our trajectory and growth, spiritual growth is not ours to make. Martin Luther made a strange statement one time. You can look it up. He said, nothing that we do matters, counts for anything in our spiritual growth. Because I used to think, well, if I read the Bible more, if I pray more, if I witness more, if I give more, if I I mean, you know, I've told that story a thousand times about you and I going into my office on Sunday night and praying until Wednesday afternoon. I've told that a million times, thinking that if we just paid the price, uh forgetting the fact Jesus paid it all, we were trying to get something we already had. So the answer is if you want to move it from your head to well, let me back up.

unknown 24:42

No.

Austin Gardner 24:42

Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, let's stop right there. He said something you need to hear. We were trying to get something we already had. You might drive that one

The Exchanged Life And Learning Grace

Austin Gardner 24:55

just a tad more.

Steve McVey 24:57

Well, I'll I'll tell a story that illustrates it. I used to go into church on Sunday in the last church I served as pastor, and I'd call the folks to the altar, and I would on at the beginning of the service, I'd say, let's have a time of prayer as we start today and ask God to give us his blessings in this service. And the people would come forward and we would pray and we would ask the Lord to give us his blessings in that service. And one Sunday morning before I went into church, I was sitting there, you know, trying to get myself psyched up to go preach. And I was looking at the Bible and my and I opened it up and I came across that verse in Ephesians that says, uh, God has given us every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus. And I heard again, I heard out of that verse the Lord speaking to me and say, Stop telling those people to pray that I'll give them blessings. I've already done it. I've already done it. And so I went out that Sunday and I said, Let's pray, but let's don't. And I read that verse. I said, The Lord showed me this morning we don't need to ask for his blessings. Let's thank him for his blessings. Watch when Nee said it. He said, Oh, the folly of trying to enter a room we're already in. And that's what you and I both did all the time back then. But things shifted and it's made all the difference in the world. The thing that's changed for me is the way I see God. So let me go back to your question about what is somebody to do. First of all, let me say this it's not a matter of getting it from your head to your heart, it's just the opposite. Our heart knows, but our head struggles with it. Let me tell you one that I think, let me tell you one I think is kind of funny. I don't know if I've ever told, I bet I bet I've not told you this one. Uh my mother struggled with some of the things I teach. My mother's been in heaven for 20 years now, so she probably doesn't struggle with it now, I hope. But when she was alive, I don't think she told my sister one time, she said, Steve takes that grace thing too far. And but my but my mother grew up in in a Pentecostal home, and she never quite escaped the poison that came from that that world. And I'm not trash talking Pentecostals, I'm just saying she never had confidence about her eternal security and things like this. But anyway, so not that long before my mother died, a year or so, I was talking to her one day, and she said to me, My housekeeper, my mother was too sick to care for her own home. And toward the end, she said, My housekeeper came over today. She said she was cleaning my house. She said, Poor thing, she's going through so many troubles. And she said, I was talking to her, she said, I was telling her what you wrote in your embracewalk about, and she told me what she was telling her. And she said, then I told her about, and she was again referencing something I'd written in my first book. And she said, and then I told her about, and then my mother stopped and she looked at me, and it was hilarious to me. My mother goes, and I don't even believe that. My own mother, my own mother. And I started laughing and I said, Well, mom, if you don't believe it, why did you tell it to her? And she said, I don't know. I said, You want me to tell you why? She said, Why? I said, Because your heart knows it's true, but you can't wrap that Pentecostal head around it. Now, my mother wasn't Pentecostal by then, but she grew up in. I said, You can't wrap that Pentecostal head about it. And brother, it's the same thing with you and me. You know, you know, we both said it. I used to say I'm Baptist foreign, a Baptist bred, and when I die, I'll be Baptist dead. And so I grew up, you know, Southern Baptist. And I had the Baptist mentality. You and I both have taught from the trail of blood, that old book, and stuff like this. And but guys, listen, I want to say this to the audience. If you're gonna go on with God, if you're gonna grow, if you really, if growth is the most important thing, and you want to know him and you're willing to follow the Holy Spirit of truth wherever it might lead you, a time is gonna come when you're gonna have to rise up above your denomination. You're gonna have to rise up above your education, your schooling. You're gonna have to rise up above your family upbringing. And you're just gonna have to go where God takes you. And it's scary, just what you said. It's scary because you go into a dark place, darkness, meaning you don't know, you can't see. But I think back in Exodus when Moses went up on the top of the mountain, you can look it up. There's a verse where it says, Moses went into the thick darkness where God was. Don't be scared of the dark. Don't be scared of, don't be scared of not knowing. And most important, listen to this. Don't be scared of repenting. I needed to repent. I needed to say, you know, a lot of this stuff that I was willing to die for, I now know I have wronged. God's not angry. God didn't, you know, I grew up in a church where we were taught we're saved to serve. Are you kidding me? Saved to serve? Imagine if we had children in this world for that reason. Why'd you have your children all to cut the grass, wash the dishes, boy,

Love Changes Your Want-To

Steve McVey 30:30

talk about a disappointment in life? No. We have children to love, and that's why God created us. You and I are here to be loved, to be to be recipients of love, to experience love, and to be an expression of that love. God doesn't need us to do anything else. Do we do other things? Well, come on, you and I know we both travel the world. We will do other things, but it's not because God needs us, it's because we're so excited about Jesus. Evangelism is not a uh a plan of salvation. Evangelism is an enthusiasm about Jesus that's contagious. You can't help but speak the things you've seen and heard. Anyway, didn't mean to preach.

Austin Gardner 31:12

You know, yeah, it's okay. You know, if you're listening, he said rise above your denomination. Uh I want to put that real plain to those of you who know me. Uh we have become man pleasers, not God pleasers. No, God's pleased, but I am so often too worried about what you think to believe that God loves me. I know you don't believe God really loves me. I know you think God's mad at me because I'm not all I ought to be. I know that you believe that I that I need to beg God to come be with me. When it God said this, I'll never leave you and never forsake you. You realize that if you run into sin, He goes with you. If you if you jump the fence and run away and do your own thing, he's like, I'm here loving you and I'm gonna keep on loving you because I never loved you for what you do. I I he doesn't even love you for who you are, though he does. He loves you because of who he is. And that's been hard for me to accept. That's been hard for me because I know that God's often in a bad mood. Steve, come on. Don't we didn't we as young people kind of think we we had to keep telling him we were sorry?

Steve McVey 32:45

You kidding? I thought if I had a flat tire, it might've been because I didn't read my Bible that more. I was held hostage. Can I can I take a minute and talk about a biblical example of what you're saying that I think it is. Of course you can. Well, it's Luke 15, it's the story we all know. Luke 15 is the chapter of lost things, and the lost son is the one we all know. We call it the story of the prodigal son, but we there you go again. We're trying to make the prodigal be the hero of the story, and we the every sermon is about let's don't be the prodigal. No, this that's that's because it's about it's about what we do.

Austin Gardner 33:25

We we want to see what we do, we don't want to see what the father's doing. That's right. This chapter has changed my life lately.

Steve McVey 33:32

Go ahead. I want to hear this. Yeah, it's the story of the loving father. So he's got two sons. One goes into the far country, he asks for his inheritance early. In other words, come on, you're not gonna die. Go ahead and give me my money. And the dad did, because if you want to go to the far country, listen to this, God will let you. So he goes to the far country and he spends all his money on, you know, women and and booze and and uh and uh uh uh that kind of drugs. You know, he in other words, he goes off, he lives the Bible calls it a righteous lifestyle. He he goes there and he parties it all away. And he comes to an end of himself because he's got nothing left. And he starts thinking, my father's servants are doing better than me. Now listen to what he does. This boy's behaving very unrighteously. He's wandered away from his father, and he says, I will go home and I'll rededicate myself. And I'll tell him, Father, I'm not worthy to be called your son. I'm not worthy to be called your son, but make me as one of your servants, and I'll serve you better, I promise. So he gets this rededication

Stop Asking For What You Have

Steve McVey 34:40

plan in his mind. Now listen to what I say next. Some people say that was the shift in the boy when he said, I'll arise and go home, but it was not. It was not. The only thing that boy has done up to this point is change his plan. He spent all the money, he's eaten with the pigs, so now he's gonna have moral reformation, go home, rededicate his life to the father, and promise you'll do better. Sounds like me growing up at church. But anyway, so he goes and the father sees him a great distance off and he runs to him. We know the story, he falls on his neck, and the boy starts to try to give his rededication prayer. Forgive me, but the father won't let him. He interrupts him, he's laughing, he's crying, he's hugging, he's holding on to him. He interrupts him and he yells back and he says, Hey, fire up the barbecue, kill the fatty cat, call and see if the Jerusalem Jazz Trio is available tonight. We're gonna have a party. The boy never even gets to give the speech. Now, the point there, and hang with me, but the point there is that boy thought his dad would have rejected him because of his bad behavior. And his dad showed him your behavior has nothing to do with my acceptance of you. You're my son. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you got the older brother. They go in to have the party that night, and the older brother is mad. He's pouting, he won't go in. He's standing in the outer darkness in a hell of his own making. He's not about to go in there. After all, people could get the wrong idea about going to the far country and sinning as light as this dad seemed to be on his younger brother. It gives the wrong message. It says, sin doesn't matter. Well, let me pause a minute and say, I think I think that dad knew he didn't have to punish the boy. Sin punishes not our father, sin. That boy he'd suffered. He'd been punished by his own stupidity. So anyway, the older brother, he won't go in. And I love this. He said, look, listen to what he says. All these many years I've served you. I have never violated your commandments. I've lived by the commandments that you that you give. I've served you all these years. You've never killed a fatty calf from me. And the daddy looks at that boy in disbelief and he shakes his head and he says, Son, don't you know that everything I have is yours? Now let's stop a minute. So the younger boy's behavior was unrighteous. The older boy's was self-righteous. They both had the same problem.

Luke 15 And The Loving Father

Steve McVey 37:55

The younger boy thought he should be rejected because of his behavior. The older boy thought he should be accepted because of his good behavior. One was unrighteous, one was self-righteous, and the f but they both had the same problem because they thought it was their behavior that would or would not give them their standing with the father. And the father basically said to them both, you both missed it. It's not about your behavior, it's about the fact that you're my child. And, you know, these prodigal son testimonies seem to make, you know, sensational testimonies at church. But Austin, I know your childhood and upbringing in mind the same. There are a lot more of us that have the testimony of the older brother than the prodigal. You and I never went to the far country and lived there, but we sure did. I know I I had the mindset of the pro of the older brother a lot of times. Scott, I've served you. Remember what I said I yelled at God that night, October 6, 1990? I've served you all these years. Just like the elder brother. But that's not it. That's not what it's about.

Austin Gardner 39:06

And the and the word for serve there is actually the word slaved for you. You treated me like a slave. Uh and that's what he said to his father. Could I say this to all of you? And this or this is to my crowd. The son that has returned from the far country says, I'm not worthy. And the brother that's been faithful says, Yeah, you're right. You're not worthy. And that they both are talking to the father, and the one says, I'm not worthy, and other says, He ain't worthy, Dad. And I am so ashamed of the fact that we have looked at people's behavior. See, we we we've now listen to me. Behavior for behavior is of no value. Um it's not what you do, it's who he is. It's not good news, it's not gospel if it is I'll love you as long as you do good. That's not gospel. Gospel is your stink, and I still love you. And if you keep on stinking, I'll keep on loving you. And I'll tell you why I'll do it, he said. Because I am love. Um go ahead, Steve. I'm sure you can more eloquently state what I think.

Steve McVey 40:23

That's right. And let me say to everybody, and some of you may struggle a little bit with this, but at least think on it. Don't just instantly reject it, but take it and say, Lord, it's if he's wrong, show me. If he's right, show me. Don't say I'm not worthy anymore. It sounds so humble, but it's false humility. I've seen I've I've I've spoken to all these churches, and I hear people saying, Lord, we're not worthy, we're not worthy. You see, it's not that I'm saying you are worthy. The point is it's a categorical error. It if as long as you're talking whether or not you're worthy, we're talking a merit system. And we don't live in a merit system. Exactly. We live in a grace system. Imagine if Chris Gardner said to his dad, or Andrew McVeigh said to his dad, I'm not worthy to be your son. Thank you for loving me. I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. Imagine when they were growing up, if they kept saying that to us, you know what we would have done? We would have sent them for counseling because we would have said, that boy's got some problems. It's not about you're worthy, you're my son. What are you talking about? And yet people think somehow there's a humility in saying it to God. Paul wrote in Ephesians, we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus. And the word workmanship is the origin, the original word. It could be translated poem. In fact, it's poema in the Greek. It could be translated poem. The Bible says we are a work of art made by God. So let's quit putting ourselves down and let's quit with this false humility that's really just a religious inferiority complex. And let's begin to agree with God about what he says, not in a prideful way, but in a thankful way, in a way that is gratitude. And again, to your point, nobody's saying behavior doesn't matter. I mean, I I said something like this. I teach an online group and I told him the other day, and I was trying to shock the daylights out of them. You know, Paul did that a lot. You know, Paul talking about circumcision said, if you're so hot on circumcision, just cut the whole thing off. I didn't say that. Paul did. And he was trying to shock, he was trying to shock. And so I said to my group the other day, I said, if you lift both hands up and give God the finger with both hands, or if you lift both hands up with palms extended and you praise him, neither one changes how God feels about you. You can't make him love you. You can't make him love you anymore, you can't make him love you any less. Sounds good that we don't believe that. I know. And people and people start getting the idea, well, if that's true, then I could just go out and raise hell, you know, act like the devil. What difference does it make? And I don't mean this, I'm gonna say it, but I don't necessarily literally mean it, but you'll get my point. People that say, well, if I didn't believe that God would, you know, is demanding I do this and this and that, and He blesses me when I do good and punish me when I do bad. If I didn't believe that, why would I behave? I want I want to look at those folks and say, uh Um, are you sure you know Jesus? Come on. Are you sure you know him? It's back to me and my wife. I don't do the things I do because I have to. I know Melanie. I've been married to her for 53 years. I do the things I do because I love her, not because there's some marriage rules. So people say, well, you might just go crazy. You know, I remember when I began to understand Grace, especially after I left the pastorate,

Worthiness, False Humility, No Scorekeeping

Steve McVey 44:15

I thought, well, now nobody's paying me to be nice. Nobody's paying me to minister. What might my life look like? You're good for that. That's right. What might my life look like now? And for the first time, I was free to serve and minister because it's who I am. Not because it's what I ought to do.

Austin Gardner 44:39

You know, for all of you listening, I I think one of the most thrilling things, I love being a dad. I love being a granddad. My grandson was in here this morning. They're fixing to go back to Pru, and we were just talking, and he's sitting down talking to my friend Robert Canfield. And, you know, I love being a dad. And you know what Jesus, Jesus is all he's doing is trying to get you to see who his dad is, who his father is, who our father is, who our Abba is. And he said, Y'all know how to be good to your kids? That's what he said. Y'all know how to be good to your kids? I mean, would y'all, if your kid asked you for a fish, would you give him a snake? If he asked for bread, would you give him a rock? Of course you wouldn't. Don't be stupid. You wouldn't do that. You know you wouldn't do that. Then he looks at you and says, Don't you know your heavenly father's far better than that? How have I lived my life preaching that, but not grasping that?

Steve McVey 45:41

I don't know. It's amazing. It's like once you see, you can't unsee. But until you see, you know, we live in a we've lived most of us, well, I say everybody, I think it's true. Everybody lives in a bubble, you know, a cultural bubble. It might be your nation, it might be your denomination, it might be your family, but we live in this cultural bubble and and we we live in it long enough, and we we we don't know what's going on outside that bubble, and our belief system becomes not what we believe anymore, it's just a self-evident reality to us, even though it's dead wrong. I used to think God scrutinized my behavior, watching me, and scorekeeper. You know, like yeah, scorekeeper. Let me tell you, God doesn't keep score. Read read chapter, read 1 Corinthians 13. 1 Corinthians chapter 13. The Bible says God is love. Well, you read that chap and put the word God where the word love is and see if you still believe 1 Corinthians 13. God is patient, God is kind.