Fig Leaves and Fake Religion: Why We Still Hide from God

Are you exhausted from trying to "achieve" a spiritual status you already possess?

In part two of this deep-dive series, W. Austin Gardner and Grace Walk author Steve McVey dismantle the "Original Lie" that keeps most Christians stuck in a cycle of religious performance. Austin shares a candid confession about his early years in ministry: he used to read the Bible like a "Chilton’s Repair Manual"—looking for instructions to fix himself instead of looking for the heart of his Father.

Key Themes in this Episode:

• The Chilton’s Manual Trap: Moving from "How do I fix this?" to "Who is my Father?"
• The First Act of Religion: Why Adam and Eve’s fig leaves were the birth of legalism.
• Doing vs. Being: Understanding that we don't "do to be" (servants/children); we "do because we are."
• The Idolatry of Guilt: Why wallowing in self-condemnation is actually a rejection of the finished work of Christ.

The Big Takeaway:
God doesn't need your service. He spoke the universe into existence—He’s doing just fine. But He wants you. He invites you into His work not because He needs an employee, but because He loves His child.

Chapters:
0:00 - Why God Doesn't Need You (But Wants You)
8:45 - Confessions of a "Bible Repair Manual" Reader
15:30 - The Original Sin: The Myth of Independence
24:10 - Fig Leaves: The Birth of Religion
32:50 - The Lie: Trying to Become What You Already Are
45:15 - Is Your Guilt Actually Idolatry?

Thanks for listening. Find us on YouTube, Substack, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.

Transcript

Picking Up The Grace Thread

Austin Gardner 0:00

I am so glad to be back with you today. We had a blast yesterday talking with my friend Steve McVeigh. And God has used him greatly in my life. And we were talking about some very interesting material. And so I hope you'll go back and listen to yesterday's if you haven't heard it. But Steve, why don't you just pick up right where we were yesterday?

Steve McVey 0:24

Well, I think we ended last time by talking about the place of spiritual service in our lives. And I I'll get a running start at it by saying that do we serve the Lord? Yes. Does it matter how we behave? Of course it does. But the problem that I ran into in my life for a lot of years is I put the cart before the horse. I thought that the Lord saved me so that I could serve Him. And then in 1990, I began to learn that God doesn't need me to serve Him. Let me put it this way: For anybody, if you think God needs you, why don't you sit down and fill out a resume and you write down everything on that resume you have to offer? And then you step up on that boundary line between time and eternity, and you hold up that resume to the God who spoke into nothingness and said, Let there be, and it was, and you tell him what it is again that you have he needs. No, God doesn't need us, but God wants us. And our spiritual service is not our gift to him. You're not doing something for the Lord. He doesn't need you to do something for him. But instead, our spiritual service is his gift to us. God is working in this world and he allows us to get in on it. Kind of like Austin back when you used to work on my car for me with the Chilton manual, and you would let me hand you the tools. I would hand you the tools, and you were kind enough to act like I was helping.

Austin Gardner 2:06

And you know, uh something you said to me one time since then that kind of hurt me. Kind of hurt me, but I needed to hear it. You said you read the Bible like you used to read the Chilton's Auto Manual. And and and you know, I I did.

Steve McVey 2:23

I mean it was true. I didn't I don't remember I don't remember saying that, but I might have said it because that's how I read the Bible.

Austin Gardner 2:28

Well, you know, but the what but the point was you were making to me was we read it like it's line upon line of everything. I think what we fail to remember, and uh I mean we I just chew the fat with you, but we need to know our father. And really the Bible, you know, there's two things that I'm I'm learning. One, I am a created being and I was meant to be dependent. That's hard. I was meant to be dependent. And I really believe, and I I don't I'm ready to be corrected, but I think the original sin was looking at God and saying, I don't need you, I want to be independent. And if I eat this tree of knowledge of good and evil, I won't need you to make decisions. And I won't need you to tell me what to do. I'll be my

Service As God’s Gift To Us

Austin Gardner 3:20

own God and I'll tell myself. And I think that's where we live, that's where all the insecurity comes from. And and and because of that, then we paint this horrendous picture of our father who has been loving since the very beginning. And Steve is so good at explaining all this. But you remember the Garden of Eden? The father, Adam and Eve never tried to get things right with God. It started with God, it was God. God God, even in the garden, wasn't angry, he was loving, and he went out and he does a picture of sacrificing himself to bring them back to him. Go ahead, Steve. I I I really want you on here for you for you to help us, but that's just some of the things the Lord's taught me.

Steve McVey 4:12

I I love that. I think that's profound insight, and you're you I agree with you a hundred percent. When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden, God didn't get mad. Now think about what they did. They sinned in the garden and they hid. They hid. And then listen the fur listen to this. The first act of religion happened. What was that act of religion? They made themselves coverings so that they could look more presumable to God. That's what religion does. It's something we do to try to make ourselves look more acceptable, more presentable to God. And it's totally unnecessary. God has seen them naked from the moment they were created, but now it was a big deal to them. And so they hid because they were scared. But what did God do? Well, he came for his walk, just like he'd always done. But let's back up a minute to the mint moment when Eve ate from that fruit. This this blew my mind the first time I saw it. The first sin ever committed on this planet was not somebody trying to do wrong. It was somebody trying to do right. Now listen to what I mean by that. The serpent saw Eve and you know, and brought up the fruit to her, and she said, We can't eat from it, because God said that the day that we eat from that fruit will die. And the serpent said, No, you sure you sure won't die. Listen to the next thing. And the day you eat from it, you'll be like him. You'll be like him. Your eyes will be open, you'll be like God. So what he said is, listen to this and tell them Austin, feel free to push back. You can even pretend you're one somebody in the audience and push back. So the first thing that the serpent said to her then was if you want to be more godly, if you want to be more godlike, do this thing. Eat from the fruit. And I believe Eve ate from that fruit because she did want to be more godlike. She wanted to be more godly. But what Eve was blind to in that moment when she disobeyed was she was already godlike. God had created them in his image and breathed into man the breath of life. So once again, she was trying to achieve something by doing that she had already received just by the fact that she had been created in the image of God. So the first lie ever told in the Bible was if you want to be more godly, here's what you need to do. And brother, I preached that lie for decades when I was a pastor. So back to my point, the first sin in scripture was not somebody trying to do something wrong, it was trying somebody trying to do something right. But as you pointed out, it was independence, it was disobedience. I used to think God would I'd be more godly if I read the Bible more, if I prayed more, if I witnessed more. I don't do those things to become something I'm not already. I do those to experience who I am already. And yes, I grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus, but it doesn't achieve it.

Austin Gardner 7:40

I I think I think uh I I I want you to continue that, but I I think this, I think if it if we will bring this down to our lives, it'll change the way we look at it. Uh yesterday Steve made the comment about our children. We talked about our how our children, and would would you want your child going around saying, I'm not worthy to be your son? Of course we don't want that. But can you imagine your child cleaning the table up after supper after dinner for you city people, uh cleaning the table after dinner and saying, I'm doing this to be a better son, to make me your son. They're trying to earn what they already have. Now I think it's good that they help. And that that ought to be, but it's not to be, it's because they are. We we don't do to be. We do not do to be. We do because of who we are. And and uh

Eden, Independence, And The Birth Of Religion

Austin Gardner 8:45

I I before I turn it back to Steve, let him go on. You know, the thing that thrilled me so much with Psalm 23 is David had ruined his life. And if there ever was a person who had no right to talk to God, it was David. He had been a lousy dad, he'd let Amnon rape Tamar, Absalom killed Amnon, he had been a lousy king, he'd killed Uriah, his best friend, he had taken Bathsheba, he had numbered the people, just a ton of stuff. But when he went to talk to the Lord, he said, I am the Lord, is my shepherd. No groveling, no begging. Oh, please be my shepherd, please be my shepherd, please come back to me. He went straight to truth, and that's what we're talking about right here. It's a lot about how you view God. Go ahead, Steve.

Steve McVey 9:41

I think you're right. I think that a lot of what we have uh, I'll say, glamorized in the church is really idolatry, just what you're saying. Wallowing in self-condemnation. How many times have we all done that? Wallowing in self-condemnation. When the Bible says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. So now here's my question. Does God condemn us? Not according to the Bible. So if the work of Jesus Christ is sufficient to God the Father, if I wallow in self-condemnation, what I'm what I'm you know suggesting by that is that the finished work of Christ might be good enough for the Father, but it's not good enough for me. Jesus, I know you died for me, but I feel bad too. I'm gonna I'm gonna punish myself some. I mean, I gotta do something. It kind of reminds me of when I buy somebody, when I buy somebody a meal and they say, Let me get the tip. I say, You're not gonna get a tip. And in my mind, I'm thinking, don't act like you're helping by giving the tip. If I'm gonna buy the meal, I'm gonna give the tip. And if you buy my meal, don't wait for me to offer the tip. I'm not gonna do it. But it is kind of it's kind of like that. Like, well, I know he died for me, but I feel bad. You understand what I mean by idolatry? It's us trying to move ourselves up in a place where we somehow we act like that, you know, what we feel or how we act or what we do is a part of getting that forgiveness, and it's not. It's already given.

Austin Gardner 11:14

I'm you know, I in my own life I'm calling that being man-centered, me-centered, because you know, I spend more time I'll be I'll be John, I I have dealt with and been a legalist for 60 years, I guess. I mean, I got saved when I was seven, almost eight. And you know, I've run I've gone back on my life and I've realized how much it was what I did. You mentioned yesterday. He said, You are my workmanship, you are my poem. Um, what's really funny is uh I preach two, eight, and nine a lot. We're saved by grace, not by works. Uh, because God doesn't want anybody bragging, but we always stop just short of verse 10. I mean, my crowd does. In verse 10, God said, I told you verse 8 and 9, I don't want you bragging. I don't want you thinking you did anything. And then he goes, Because you're my work, you're not working for me. I'm I made you. You can't do anything for me, I did it for you. You get that? I mean, I really want that to come home to you because what you you don't mean to do this. I didn't mean to do it, but we're man-centered. It's like, what do I do? How do I pray? How do I go to church? How do I read my Bible? And all of my life has been focused on. I don't have I would have never admitted this, but my life has been so focused on Austin. It's wicked, it's wicked. I needed to be focused on look what Jesus did. And then before Steve jumps in, you know, I I'm preaching Ephesians. You know, he spends three chapters before he ever says anything about you doing anything. He goes, This is what I've done, this is what I've done, this is what I've done, this is what I've done, this is what I've done. He does say this, and remember this is what I've done. And and and and then finally he gets around to some of our behavior, but even that behavior is not because what he wants us to do, but as a result of what he has done. Go ahead, Steve.

Steve McVey 13:22

Yeah, I agree. Uh, we we want to make we always want to make ourselves the hero, don't we? I know uh in the story. Uh for instance, um let's think of it. And and this this this might be something new to some of the folks that are watching and listening to us right now, but you're right, we want to make it man-centered. So let's go to the parables for a minute. A man has a field, or a man knows of a field, and there's a treasure in the field, and so the man, knowing that the treasure's there, goes and sells all that he has so that he can buy the field to get the treasure. For years I preached that that uh that the treasure is Jesus, and it's worth anything. It's worth anything for me to have Jesus. So notice that version. I make myself the hero. I'm willing to pay the price, whatever it takes to have him. But the treasure is you and me. Jesus said in another parable, the field is the world. The treasure is you and me. And the one that bought the field to have the treasure was Jesus. He's the hero. Because what what are we going to turn around now and say we paid something to get Jesus? We didn't pay it anything. Jesus paid it all. Or you take the good Samaritan, and I this is funny to me now. How many times in the old days did I preach that and I say, we need to be the good Samaritan? That's us. No, the story is that this the man was lying in the ditch, and the the the legalist came by, and the doc everybody came by, and then the Samaritan came and helped him. No, we're not the good Samaritan. Jesus is. We're the one laying in the ditch wounded. But we want to make ourselves the hero of the story. Can I let me give a definition so when I'm talking legalism and grace, people know what I'm talking about. What I mean when I use the words. Legalism, I define legalism this way, Austin. Legalism is a system of living in which we try to make spiritual progress or gain God's blessings based on what we do. I'm gonna repeat it. Legalism is the system of living

Self-Condemnation As Subtle Idolatry

Steve McVey 16:05

where we try to make spiritual progress or gain God's blessings based on what we do. Now, in contrast to that, grace is the system of living in which God blesses us because we are in Jesus Christ and for no other reason at all. Those are very, very much in contrast with each other. And back in the old days when I was a worksaholic, that would have scared me. Because I would have said, But if I don't bear down on the church, if I don't preach hard preaching, if I don't tell them what they better do, they must do, they should do, they won't do it. But the thing I didn't realize then that I do now is that fear and manipulation like that can work for a very short time, but it won't sustain people. The only thing that brings transformation is love, not fear.

Austin Gardner 17:10

But you know, it's not good preaching if you're not telling people what they need to do. See, good preaching and and I in my crowd would be rip their face off, throw salt, throw salt in the wound, step on their toes. That's good preaching. And and and and and the Lord has really dealt with my heart that we're to be gospel preachers. But then I read online, and and when they when they say gospel preachers, they think that means preach about sin. And sin's not the good news, sin's the bad news. The good news is somebody came to rescue you from the bad news. And and and so I got more to say, but go ahead.

Steve McVey 17:49

Sin is the favorite topic in the church world today in the evangelical fundamentalist church for a sense of, and you know, and I and I stand by that argument with anybody, and you know why I know that? Because Pete, you can tell what's most important to somebody by what they talk about the most. Right? What do you talk about the most? And you'll hear you'll hear more said about sin in a lot of churches than you do about Jesus. I was speaking at a pastor's conference one time and talking about this very thing, and a preacher raised his hand. Listen to this. I promise you this happened. I had a QA and the pastor raised a pastor raised his hand, and he said, if I don't preach every week telling people what they should and shouldn't do, what am I supposed to preach about? Oh, I couldn't resist it. I I couldn't resist. I leaned over the pulpit and I said, Oh, I don't know. How about Jesus? I mean, come on.

Austin Gardner 18:39

You shouldn't be talking to me like that. Uh, you know, I've spent my life. I'm the poster child for that, brother. You know, do y'all y'all realize that as you listen? Uh even you even say this. You say, Don't sugarcoat the gospel. I got to thinking about that the other day. Sugarcoat, how do you sugarcoat good news? You don't sugarcoat, you it's already sugarcoated. I mean, honestly, gospel is good news. That's what it means. But we think it's not good news unless we preach sin. And I would just like to say to all of you, and this is off topic, I've got other notes to bring us back, but you realize they've had the living slop beat out of them by sin. And they come to church hurting, and we give them a three, five, seven-step program to 12-step program to fix her life. And and and it's all about them. And and and and the father, here's what he said. Are you ready? He said, Go tell them how good I am and what I did. I fixed all that. I took all that on me. You don't need any steps, no steps, no steps, no, no formulas. Just accept my gift. Go ahead, Steve.

Steve McVey 20:11

I I agree, it is good news. It's interesting in the world I've come from, you know, like you, I've had a lot of connections over the years, and and I have had people actually uh suggest that I am compromising the gospel because I'm so focused on grace and and Jesus and I don't talk so much about sin anymore. Uh, but I say back at you, I say they're compromising the gospel. Let's move out of the subject of salvation for a minute, talk about the Christian life. Sugarcoat the message. So if I say to people, you're not oblig uh spiritual service, good works, it's not an obligation you have. It's an opportunity you have. And when I come at it from a grace orientation, you you want to wallow in your guilt and shame about your sin, and I say, Stop it. That's idolatry. And somebody says, Well, you're just saying what people want to hear, you're just sugar covenant. I say to them, Yeah, right, go to church and teach the message of grace and see how many people want to hear it. Self-righteous people don't want to hear it. They want to be told, you need to rededicate yourself and rival and wallow in it. Tell God how sorry you are, and promise Him you're gonna do better. This was my life. I promise I'll read my Bible every day. I'll pray. You know, I used to read those books by people like Ian Bounds, and I felt like such a failure because I didn't pray hours every day and all of that. So I'll start doing that. I'll try harder to do better. That's what people want to hear because they're religious masochists. They like it when you hurt them. You hurt me so bad today, pray. Preacher. Oh, it felt so bad. Thank you. That was so good that it hurt so bad. They want you to stop on their toes. Like you said, that's what they want. But I'm not going to compromise the gospel with that crap. I'm not going to do it because the gospel is, as you said, Austin, the gospel is good news, and it is the good news that has ch uh the ability to transform people. Not a self-improvement program baptized to religious words.

Austin Gardner 22:25

I I would say to you that what we've got going on here is back to the elder brother and the younger brother and the loving prodigal father, who is prodigal in that he just r ridiculously gives away his love. We tend to be in our churches the elder brother. So we do want it to hurt. But we don't really want it to hurt me. I need it to hurt him. I need it to hurt that other guy. And it feels good that he and I I'm I'm telling you, can I can I be honest? I don't know how many times I've amened when we were kicking the younger brother. I've I've amened. Preach it home, brother. Preach it, bring it home, let him have it, kick the younger brother. That becomes our attitude. And and God the Father's looking at him saying, You're both my children. I love you both. But when a lot of stuff went down in my life recently, I was praying one day and I said, I was said, I literally I said, Father, you need to you need to punish them. Some of them ought to die. And it's almost almost audible when he said, Well, don't be ridiculous, they're my kids too. And I don't kill my kids. Okay, that's why Jesus said, Bless them that curse you. Go ahead.

Steve McVey 23:51

I love that. I don't kill my kids. Uh I think of a story in the Old Testament. You know the story when Abraham and Sarah went down to Egypt and they were approaching town, and Abraham thought they might kill him to have a go at his wife because she was a good-looking woman. So he told her, uh, tell them you're my sister. And so she goes in and carries out the plan. Now, before they get there, God says to Abraham, Abraham, I'm gonna make a great nation out of you. I'm gonna bless your people, your descendants will exceed the number of the stars in the heaven. Next time God speaks, Abraham, I'm gonna bless you, your seed will exceed the number of stars of the heaven. Next time, Abraham, I'm gonna bless you. You go back, look at it. I'm gonna bless you, your seed will exceed the number of stars in the heaven. They get down there to Egypt, and he says, Tell them you're my sister. So she does. So Pharaoh comes together, and he takes her into his home and takes, you know, takes her into his bedroom, and God stops him. God intervenes. Abraham's gonna listen to this. Abraham's gonna let that man have sex with his wife. Yeah, he is. But God's wicked. God stops it. God stops it. And she comes out again and they start traveling. Read it in the Bible. What's God gonna say about that? So you read the scripture right after that section in the scripture where Abraham lets his wife go in to get, you know, Jihewood to Pharaoh. They go on their journey again, and finally God speaks, and you know what God says? Abraham, I'm gonna make a great nation out of you. Your stars are gonna be a number that exceed the stars of the heaven. What about now? Listen carefully, guys. What about what he just did with his wife? Listen to this. God never mentioned it. Yep, that's right. Why not? Not because it didn't matter, it did matter. Can you imagine being in Abraham's head after he did such a thing as that? Can you imagine what he felt about himself and what he must have said about himself and thought to himself? Can you imagine what that must have done to the relationship between him and his wife and how she felt about him doing that and what she had to say about it? God didn't say anything about it because listen, there was no point in it. Anything God could have said, Abraham or Sarah had already said. God didn't have to punish Abraham. His own stupidity had punished him. But when you say something like that to people, and God never mentioned it, some people that are steeped in legalistic

Jesus As The Hero Of The Story

Steve McVey 26:40

thinking think you're saying, see, there's he's going light on sin. He's acting like sin doesn't matter. And I'm like, are you listening to me? Of course it matters, but what I'm saying is, listen to this. I didn't make it up. Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds.

Austin Gardner 27:00

I think all of us, all of you listening, I want you to understand when he loved you. And that's the whole point that Steve's making. And I think you know this in your head. I have known it in my head intellectually, academically. But he loved you when you were with while you were still sinning, Romans 5.8, Romans 5.6, while you were without strength, and you were ungodly, which basically means anti-God. You you you were like, I don't have anything to do with God. And he already loved you. And God committed his love, God showed his love toward us. And while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And so I need you to understand, he didn't start loving me because I wasn't sinning and I started doing right. And he that's not what keeps him loving me. He doesn't love me based on okay, this is gone. My friends, he doesn't love me based on anything I'm doing. He doesn't love me based on how much I preach, how much I write, how much I don't sin, how much I do write, how much I give. He doesn't love me based on any of that. And uh that has radically shaken my life. Uh I've known it, but I've not known it. And so let me give you my three things for read when I read the Bible now and see if you can probably help me with even more. But I look at everything, everything I read the Bible, my first thing is God is love. God is love. God doesn't love. He doesn't love, he is love, and you're gonna say, well, no, that's the same. No, it's not. Because if you if you do love, you can quit loving. But God God straightened me out on this thing, but God can't quit loving because God is love. That's his very essence. Number two, oh, taste and see that the Lord is good. God is love, and God is good. And the third thing is every time you see anything about God, you can't know him unless you look at him through the Jesus filter. The Jesus filter. Because Jesus said, You see me, you have seen the Father. And so if you want to know anything about how the Father would do, just look at Jesus. That's how I read the Bible, and that is radically changing my life.

Steve McVey 29:35

Well, that's what you've just said is I'm I'm Christocentric. Christ is the center of everything for me. How I read the Bible, how I see the Father, I see it through the lens of Christ. And that's exactly that's exactly the point that that a lot of us have missed and I missed. Let me let taste and see that the Lord is good. Let me get let me give you an illustration that I think will will uh agree and support that. Think of think of a pie. All right. Think of a pie, like a like a pie diagram, you know. So let's talk about some things. Let's talk about God's love, God's holiness, God's justice, God's wrath, God's power. I've listed five things: God's love, holiness, justice, wrath, and power. Now think of that pie. How big a piece of pie would slice would you give to each of those things? Well, the problem that we run into is that people would say, well, God's love is going to be a big piece of the pie, but also is God's holiness, and also is God's justice, also is God's wrath, God's power. They miss the point. Because listen to this. God's love is not to be divided as a piece of the pie. God's love is the crust that holds the whole thing. God's love is not an attribute of God, contrary to what many systematic theology books will tell you. God's love is the essence, it is the fundamental core of who he is. And so we need to come to everything else that is said about God through the lens of his love. And we can if we dig deeply enough.

Austin Gardner 31:40

I think uh I've I don't know that we've discussed this, but I've really been working on holiness. And uh, you know, the Hebrew and the Greek word for holy is separate. That's really what uh I think you you you're I know you're much better in the languages than I could ever be, but it's it's about being different and separate. And you know, when we say God is holy, holy, holy, I think that really means he is weirdly different. He is nothing like you. Nothing. He is like outer space, outer space, outer space, because I am self-centered and God is love, and and and I think it even his holiness is he's nothing, he's nothing like us, nothing like us. Uh so help me with holy.

Steve McVey 32:34

Well, the problem is again, because okay, let's go back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What did God say about that tree? He said, Don't eat from that tree. What what the tree was the knowledge of good and evil? What did the tree offer? Knowledge. What kind of knowledge? The knowledge of good and evil. You'll know good from evil. Now notice God did not say to them, only eat from the good branch on the tree, but don't eat from the evil branch. Why didn't he say that? He said, Don't eat from the tree at all. But that's the tree that will help me understand moral living. You don't need to understand moral living. If you live from the tree of life, then you are living out of me as your source. And your lifestyle will be much better than moral. Your life will be miraculous. To live morally is a step down. You are capable of living miraculously, but they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and they were immersed now into a moral framework. And so now it stopped being about, stopped being about living out of union with God, and it started being about doing right and avoiding wrong, something that God said we never should have gotten mixed up with to start with. So you bring this moral framework into our understanding of the Bible and into definitions of words, and now we look at the word holy and we baptize it in the muddy waters of morality, which it doesn't need to be. And we say, now, holiness means a certain standard of morality. But now wait, I'm gonna ask this question, then I want you to respond as you think people would, Austin. If holy, being holy has to do with morality, please tell me this. The Bible says the Lord is in his holy temple. The Bible says inside that temple there were holy cups, bowls, lampstands, basins, censors, trays, holy priestly garments, holy tools to be used at the altar. The Ark of the Covenant was holy, anointing contain oil had containers that were holy. How in the world can an object be holy? If the word has to do with behavior, it does it. You nailed it, it has to do with being set aside for a particular purpose.

Austin Gardner 35:16

Well, I think that we are convinced that holiness means living by the cultural norms and mores, not sins that our society picks. And I have because I've traveled a little bit around the world, you know, uh smoking can be just a wicked sin, but being 200 pounds overweight, not that big a deal. Um I just think I think I think what we've done is we did because we because we are independent thinkers, not dependent thinkers on God, we decided what's right and wrong. And and I I really bring it whole he wants me to be holy. I think that's like Betty's holy to me. She's separated to me, and I'm separated to her. And it's not that she's always a perfect wife, or I'm always a perfect husband, though she's a lot closer to the perfect wife than I am, husband. But holiness simply means separated. And so I belong to God, and I am dependent on him, and I'm gonna wake up every morning just thinking about how great our Father is.

Steve McVey 36:30

Can I can I interject something here? You said in passing he wants me to be holy. I would say you are holy. True. Not only does he want it, but he's made you that way. As you know, the word saint means holy. We are holy. And when the Bible says, well, we say things like be holy or be perfect as your father's in heaven, and heaven is perfect, it it it it's really saying this.

When Churches Preach Sin More Than Jesus

Steve McVey 36:55

It's like, you remember that time we went fishing out there on Inland Lake, you took the boat, went across to the bridge, and I got lost in the woods. Yeah, I do. Of course you do. I got lost in the woods, and I was you were looking for me to show up at that bridge on the other side of the water for, gosh, an hour or more, I suppose.

Austin Gardner 37:13

Oh, I think it's more than that.

Steve McVey 37:15

Okay, well, I'm being kind to myself. But anyway, I was lost and I got scared. I got scared because I was lost. I couldn't find my way out of the woods, and it was, gosh, and I'm late at night. And the more scared I became, the faster I walked. You know, that's just how you do. And I'm fighting my way through kudzu and I'm running through the woods and I'm scared to death. Now, let's suppose for a minute that you would have been able to speak to me. We didn't have cell phones back in those days, but let's suppose I had my cell phone and you had called me on the phone and said, Where are you, man? I said, I'm lost in the woods, I'm lost, I'm scared, I'm lost in the woods, I don't know what to do, and I'm freaking out because I'm lost. What if you had said to me over the phone, Steve, stop it? Be a man. Be a man. Now, I would not have interpreted that to mean that I'm not a man, because I would have known I'm a man. But I would have understood that statement to be telling me, stop acting like a scared little girl and be who you are. Yes, sir. Act like who you are. So when the Bible, when we say things like, be holy or be perfect as your father in heaven, we're not saying you're not that. The Bible's not saying that. It's saying, be who you are. There's a verse in scripture that says God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not counting their sins against them, et cetera, et cetera. And then it says, now be reconciled to God. Now wait a minute. When the Bible says we've been reconciled to God, that's a finished work. But then it tells me, be reconciled. I thought I was because of Jesus. I am. It's saying to me, so now be that, be who you are. So you see how I'm tying that into the word holy. That's exactly it.

Austin Gardner 39:22

I think that's been hard for me to accept. Uh if we're being honest, you know, it's uh I think holiness means uh quit doing this and start doing that, and that's not what it means. I was recently preaching in our church and I was talking about uh saints, and I was explaining to them, you are saints. And so I later had a QA and I said, now how many of you are are acknowledge that you're saints? And uh a young man we're sitting in a circle just talking. He didn't raise his hand, he didn't say anything. I said, Well, what about you? He said, I ain't good enough to be no saint. I said, But what did God call you? I don't know, but I ain't good enough to be no saint. And isn't that the way you think that are listening right now? Somehow again, we're back to man-centered. We're back to I have to earn it. I have to pay for it, I have to gain it myself. And uh I a story that I grew up all my life I have preached and taught and lived that I want to be David and Kill Goliath. And the Holy Spirit just recently showed me so strongly that David in that story is Jesus. He is our captain, he's our champion, he's our head, and uh, he's our father, he's our leader. And you know, if David wins, all of Israel wins, and if Goliath wins, all of the Philistines win. And I and and I'm the trembling, scared hiding in my tent Israeli. That's who I am. And the champion steps out and in the name of his father wins the battle, and we all win. So again, I spent my life trying to be David when I needed to realize that Jesus is the David in my life. Go ahead, Steve.

Steve McVey 41:29

Let me read a couple of verses on that, on being saints. The word saint, as you said, means holy. And he said, I'm not good enough to be a saint. Listen to this verse. Hebrews 10, chapter 10. By that will have we been sanctified, and the word sanctified means we've been made saints. We've been made holy. By that will have we been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Now, if Hebrews 10 10 says, We have been sanctified, we have been made holy. What caused that to happen? Is it because I lived a certain way? Hebrews 10 10. We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ. He has sanctified us. It's happened, it's done. Now back to the be a man thing. Hebrews 10. If you go four verses later to Hebrews 10 14, it says, For by one offering he hath perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Now wait a minute. Four verses earlier, it says, through the offering of the body of Jesus, we have been sanctified. Now in verse 14, it says we are being sanctified. Which is it? It's both. We have been made holy, we have been sanctified. That is an accomplished identity. It is an objective fact. But we are being sanctified, is an unfolding experience where we're growing into the truth that's always been real about us. Which one is more oaky? An acorn or a large oak tree? Well, the answer is they're equally as oaky. O-A-K, if that's a word. It's just that one has grown into its full maturity and the other is still growing. And it's the same thing with holiness. We are holy, but yes, we are growing into it. But let's not forget that's not about our behavior. It's about our understanding of who Christ is in us and who we are in him. First Corinthians 1 30, I love it. You know the verse you preached it, I bet, that talks about Jesus and how he became to us wisdom from God and righteousness. And sanctification and redemption. Jesus is our righteousness. And as we grow in grace and the knowledge of Jesus, we understand we're not getting holy in a literal

Holiness Means Set Apart

Steve McVey 44:10

sense. We already are, but we're growing into who we've been all along.

Austin Gardner 44:13

You know, I think it's hard for us to accept, and I know that this your the hairs on the back of your neck are bristling a little bit because it's not enough about what you do. But I want to remind you that it's wages of sin, gift of God. Wages of sin is death, the gift of God. And as a in a gift, a gift is completely, totally free, undeserved, unearned, and you don't try to pay a gift back. And I I think I was basically raised to say it is all grace. It is all grace. But then I was kind of it's almost like a mortgage on a house. I own the house, but I do kind of have to be making monthly payments on it, or I could lose the house. So I would never believe I could lose my salvation. And so you've got to understand uh we are dependent creation creatures, and and and we're just depending on God to do the work, and and that's who you're trusting. And so what being an oak, whether it's an acorn or a tree, it's all the same, that's the same truth. But it here's the here's what I want you to get a hold of. It's not about you, yeah. It's it's simply not about me, it is about him, and that's why he's a savior. That's why he is a gospel message, that's why it's a Holy Spirit's work in my life. And so I hope that you'll get a hold of that. Well, Steve, you'll say anything else before we uh stop for today.

Steve McVey 45:58

Well, I'll just say that this this grace walk, who we are in Christ and living out of that. Uh Leah, I'll just say this to the audience. If you're somebody, and I've been here, I've been there, I've been where I'm at about to say, if you're somebody who goes, you know, God knows I've tried, I'm trying hard to live the life that I think He wants me to live, I'm doing my best, my heart's in the right place. But I'm just tired. I'm just tired. Surely there's got to be more to it than this. I'm telling you, there is. And if rededicating yourself to God and promising to try harder to do better, if that was the answer, you would be more you'd be better than the apostle Paul right now. We all would, right, in the church world. How many times have you rededicated your life and promised God you're going to try harder to do better? How many times have you done it? If it worked, you wouldn't have to keep doing it. It doesn't work. That's just a re renewal of self-effort, and that's not the answer. The answer is coming to the end of self-effort and throwing ourselves into total abandonment to Christ and saying, I belong to you. As Paul said, I no longer live, but you live in me. And now you live this life that I have in the flesh. That's the answer right there. And it might it might go against some lot of what you've been taught, a lot of what you've you know, in it you know, got instilled deeply in your brain. But if you if you ask the Holy Spirit, the Spirit will show you it it is the truth, and it's the only thing that makes sense.

Austin Gardner 47:29

I think the verse that popped into my head as you talked right there was Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you, and and here's a cuss word I'll give you rest. Because we want to say, Come unto me all you that are labor and heavy laden, I'll give you salvation, and I'm gonna put you to work. But he said, Take your my yoke upon you and learn of me. And I've I'm I fear we haven't learned of him. It's not because you're bad people, it's religion and effort and performance, and we're tired. Uh I don't know, maybe I won't stop right here, but I can I tell you, I have never measured up. When I have preached to thousands, I thought I could have done better. Uh I thought maybe if I'd have prayed more, more people would have made a decision. I thought I didn't illustrate that well. I thought I I went over time a little bit on that. I thought I I didn't I was too worried about what something and it's all I was every time and everything I've ever done in my life, it's always been like so much pressure on me. And I have always talked about that. I've always told people it's uh it's a lonely place, it's a heavy place to carry all this that I carry. And I and then I listen to Jesus now and he goes, Hey, just come here. I'll give you rest. And so I I don't know how much you're hurting. I don't know how tired you are. I uh and I am not saying nothing matters, it all matters, but you know, it comes down to this. Uh you know the place that I'm most relaxed is with Betty. I've been married to her for almost 53 years. And uh I can lay down I can if I don't want to work one day and I just say I ain't working today, she never thinks badly of me. You know, I've never worried at night when I went to bed if she's gonna kill me. Our marriage has never been based on my performance. It's never been based on my performance. I've had cancer and COVID and she's had to care for me, and she hasn't quit. And all I would say to you, if you're listening, is uh God's a

Rest, Burnout, And Ending Self-Effort

Austin Gardner 50:05

far better father than Betty is a wife. And he called you to come to him and rest. Uh Steve, is would you agree rest is almost a curse word?

Steve McVey 50:18

It's a four-letter word that legalists hate to use, but you're right. That's exactly what he said. You know, I I you know, we we I used to say I'd rather, oh, how many times I'd say I'd rather burn out than rust out. I'd rather burn out than rust out. One day I heard the spirit say, Well, either way, you're out. Let me tell you, it doesn't matter if you burn out or rust out. If you're out, you're out. No, we need to be like that burning bush. We need to burn on, not burn out. That's good.

Austin Gardner 50:45

That's good. Well, I want to thank you for listening. We'll be back tomorrow. I want to talk with Steve tomorrow so you can spread the word a little bit about this. I want to talk to him about uh the way we used to view God and the way we now view God. Uh is God a judge, a rule, a rulekeeper, a scorecard keeper, uh is he a harsh disciplinarian? Just who is he? And I don't think that uh I think it's going to be worth your time. So thank you for being with us today, and I look forward to seeing you tomorrow. This is followed by mercy. I've been so excited about what I'm doing here. I haven't even told you, but if you want to give us a like or share this, I'd appreciate it. And I thank you very much for listening. God bless you.

Steve McVey 51:32

God bless you.